tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post8848918221929975083..comments2024-03-18T02:16:13.180-07:00Comments on Holier than You Blog: The Chris Bucchere Accidentmurphstahoehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-83101919012999498302013-11-08T07:56:43.611-08:002013-11-08T07:56:43.611-08:00As we all say, accidents do happen. Even if you tr...As we all say, accidents do happen. Even if you try so hard to be careful, it will come at you when you least expect it. But then, if you think you’re on the right track, go fight for it. And of course, you have to have a reliable attorney to defend you.<br /><br /><a href="http://mastrangelolawoffices.com/oakland-motorcycle-accident-lawyer/" rel="nofollow">Maggie @Mastragelo Law Offices</a><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082809152879604221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-12991152123388818212013-01-19T02:55:38.738-08:002013-01-19T02:55:38.738-08:00Rattling work man, ready your heads last you did i...Rattling work man, ready your heads last you did it.<br /><a href="http://www.nowinnofeeclaimsco.org/accident-claims" rel="nofollow">accident compensation claim</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-7469709437717352412012-06-15T17:29:09.160-07:002012-06-15T17:29:09.160-07:00Impossible - I have never seen a cyclist stop for ...Impossible - I have never seen a cyclist stop for a stop light.murphstahoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-34294582321984158202012-06-15T15:05:22.009-07:002012-06-15T15:05:22.009-07:00There is new evidence that has come out that Chris...There is new evidence that has come out that Chris had a co-rider. that co-rider was able to stop at the light while Chris plowed through it and killed a pedestrian.august westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05739680600300428926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-89070090012016003222012-06-14T15:18:12.395-07:002012-06-14T15:18:12.395-07:00There's no evidence that Hui and his fellow pe...There's no evidence that Hui and his fellow pedestrians were jaywalking. <br /><br />While the light may have been a yellow when Chris Bucchere entered Market, the street is four plus lanes wide, so it's likely that the pedestrian signal did turn white before they crossed. Take a look at at the intersection on Google maps, you'll see that there is oodles of space between the edge of Divis and the 17th street crosswalk, between 80 and 100 feet.<br /><br />He could have layer his bike down, which he claimed to do but did not. He could have turned left onto Market or into the gas station. He could have slammed on his brakes.Madame Defargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05180672771705342452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-60716170102827232922012-06-14T15:17:30.945-07:002012-06-14T15:17:30.945-07:00There's no evidence that Hui and his fellow pe...There's no evidence that Hui and his fellow pedestrians were jaywalking. <br /><br />While the light may have been a yellow when Chris Bucchere entered Market, the street is four plus lanes wide, so it's likely that the pedestrian signal did turn white before they crossed. Take a look at at the intersection on Google maps, you'll see that there is oodles of space between the edge of Divis and the 17th street crosswalk, between 80 and 100 feet.<br /><br />He could have layer his bike down, which he claimed to do but did not. He could have turned left onto Market or into the gas station. He could have slammed on his brakes.Madame Defargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05180672771705342452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-72491775889920068992012-04-12T11:25:24.945-07:002012-04-12T11:25:24.945-07:00Erorg - I think you pretty much summed it up, thou...Erorg - I think you pretty much summed it up, though I really shy away from doing anything to blame the victim. Because it is known that pedestrians might jump the light, and that if you are on a bicycle you are not very visible, and may not be expected by the pedestrian group, dial it back and go the extra mile to prevent a collision.murphstahoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-16570956333096638252012-04-12T10:18:53.209-07:002012-04-12T10:18:53.209-07:00One thing I learned as a kid...
1. LOOK BOTH WAYS...One thing I learned as a kid...<br /><br />1. LOOK BOTH WAYS before crossing, even if the light is GREEN and you have the right of way. There still may be a car that isnt through the intersection yet, especially if its a big intersection. Its your DUTY to keep yourself safe. <br /><br />When I lived in Half Moon Bay, they changed the stop lights for this reason to have ALL lights in all directions will be RED for 3-5 seconds BEFORE another turns green, so they can clear the cars out of the intersections before the flow of traffic begins. This way no one gets T-Boned.<br /><br />With all that said, while I do believe pedestrians have the right of way, more so crossing the street from TWO CORNERS rather than just "crosswalk", I believe pedestrians, especially in major cities with large flows of traffic, and wonky lights need to keep themselves safe and not rely on the "Oh, its my turn, someone else can worry if they hit me" attitude that so many people have. <br /><br />And contradicting myself with THAT said, it is also the responsibility of anyone on any mode of transportation they are in control of, or have access to control if the driver does not, to avoid pedestrians and clear intersections SAFELY without endangerment - this means slowing down, slamming on the brakes, turning a corner to avoid pedestrians, or any other measure to keep your vehicle safely operating and avoiding incidents like these. Ultimately, if you blow through a YELLOW light, or in Chris' case an ORANGE light, he accepts responsibility fully for being negligent as he KNEW he was operating at a high rate of speed and couldnt allow for clearance of the intersection during the minimal allotment of time for the light changes, but he COULD have slowed and stopped his bike and self faster than trying to clear. <br /><br />Im sorry, but Id rather injure myself than kill another person, but thats just me!Erorghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11181504643185594386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-31692740825390243332012-04-11T16:16:41.809-07:002012-04-11T16:16:41.809-07:00Whereas you proposed a scenario that sought to cle...Whereas you proposed a scenario that sought to clear Chris of willful negligence or recklessness.<br /><br />I do not believe I did any such thing. I think we start with the facts and see what we can draw out from there. Several people have jumped straight from <br /><br />1) Strava exists<br />to<br />2) Chris was blasting down the hill to set a record and killed a guy.<br /><br />That's a big leap not supported by facts. Strava has no relevance here. Either Bucchere was reckless, or he wasn't.<br /><br />I'm not trying to clear Bucchere of negligence.<br /><br />If there is actual video, the speculation will end, and that's probably a good thing. If the video matches the cop's description, then it's definitely a good thing we don't live in his brain.murphstahoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-77020642097558086502012-04-11T15:19:21.075-07:002012-04-11T15:19:21.075-07:00@murphstahoe based on the information that is know...@murphstahoe based on the information that is known, I could counter that he might have stopped at all the stop signs/lights and blew threw the final intersection at 35mph, which would be reckless. The point is that neither you nor I know at all what exactly happened, so to claim otherwise is dishonest. Whereas you proposed a scenario that sought to clear Chris of willful negligence or recklessness, I proposed a scenario that did the opposite. <br /><br />Regardless, there apparently exists video of the incident indicates he did not make any effort to stop before plowing into the victim. Based on this evidence, his clear lack of judgement and his prior "timing" of this bike run, I'd say the odds favor my version of events over yours.Razor Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15553555286751684871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-12435820909732725472012-04-11T15:04:45.311-07:002012-04-11T15:04:45.311-07:00@Razor
1) It is known that there was a Strava seg...@Razor<br /><br />1) It is known that there was a Strava segment on this piece of road. It is known that the segment ended at 18th Street. It is known that this segment includes some streetlights and even a stop sign at 16th. <br /><br />2) It is also known that this segment was flagged by the userbase as "Hazardous". To make it clear to all the people latching onto this, what does flagging of a segment mean? It means that there is no ranking of the segment done on the website. The time on the segment is kept, and will be posted on your individual ride. On the segment page, your own best time will be posted, but it is not compared to anyone else's time. <br /><br />3) It is not known if the flagged status of the segment impacted Mr. Bucchere's approach to the segment. If the segment was flagged, he had no times of other people to compare to. Would he be worried about beating his time on a flagged segment? Unknown.<br /><br />4) It is not known when the segment was flagged. I looked at the segment in the early afternoon on March 29 - the day of the crash - and it had already been flagged. I do not know if it was flagged that day. I did see Chris' Strava data, but did not notice a segment for that downhill. This was because the segment ends at 18th, and as we known Chris never made it to 18th to trip the segment.<br /><br />5) Known - here are four of Mr. Bucchere's times on that segment including his record, shown from the google cache before the segment was flagged. This does not show the KOM time.<br /><br />http://sfcitizen.com/blog/2012/04/06/did-strava-com-help-kill-pedestrian-sutchi-hui-whats-your-time-on-the-castro-street-descent-aka-castro-street-bomb/<br /><br />2:20, 2:57, 3:00, 3:07<br /><br />His fastest time ever on that segment was 17.4 MPH average over almost 3/4 of a mile. 17.4 MPH is not particularly fast on a flat stretch of road, this road is downhill. To me a 17.4 MPH top time indicates that Bucchere had stopped for at least one light (or the stop sign). His other times are in the 14 MPH range, definitely waiting for some lights.<br />It certainly does not seem like a "BOMB". If the road was closed and you could go down it at top speed, the average speed would be in the high 20's or low 30's.<br /><br />I do not think this can indicate recklessness on this stretch of road. What it shows is that Bucchere typically followed the lights. 2:20 would be consistent with catching all the green lights but stopping at the stop sign.<br /><br />6) Not known - did he encounter red lights on the way down the hill that day? The GPS data will indicate if he stopped anywhere between Waller and Market. Why speculate? I saw the track and it had several up and downs on the speed graph and then a sharp spike at the end. I did not make note of where the spike started.murphstahoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-91643763894006983712012-04-11T14:32:09.711-07:002012-04-11T14:32:09.711-07:00Suppose for a moment that Chris was riding quickly...Suppose for a moment that Chris was riding quickly in order to track and post a personal best time for this route on Strava.com. Most rational people would consider this reckless, and given the fact this resulted in the loss of a life... most would argue this should warrant jail time for involuntary manslaughter.<br /><br />While your video indicates there there are pedestrians that enter the crosswalk before the walk signal is illuminated, or that there are vehicles that run the yellow and reach the crosswalk when the walk signal is illuminated, it does not indicate what happened in that unfortunate incident.<br /><br />Now Strava records along with video evidence of the accident and Chris's own comments on the matter (before before being deleted) are true evidence that will most certainly be used against him... for both criminal as well as civil legal matters.Razor Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15553555286751684871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-54492150711973036232012-04-11T04:00:05.093-07:002012-04-11T04:00:05.093-07:00I think this is less an issue of a cyclist than of...I think this is less an issue of a cyclist than of a typical bit of San Francisco entitlement. I've read about this guy and he seems like the douchey type that show up at SXSWi every year babbling about social media and how clever his ideas are. He thinks he's some awesome amazing action man whose trusty helmet died so that he may live. I hope the Hui family sues the shit out of him.luxziahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02506527061583491347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-33810196795369290142012-04-10T20:06:28.711-07:002012-04-10T20:06:28.711-07:00I think all the points are well made about how we ...I think all the points are well made about how we don't have enough information to claim fault at this point. Though, if he did make statements about blasting through the least populated part of the crosswalk are true then he's at fault in my mind. He should have been locked up or laid his bike down, rather than accelerating. <br /><br />The truth is that while there are many of my fellow cyclists that stop at lights and signs, it seems like there are increasing numbers that don't.<br /><br />And it's not just bikers, not a day goes by when I don't see a driver roll through a stop and make a right without looking right. Lots of pedestrians get run down this way.<br /><br />What we need is a collective understanding that we live in a dense city and we all need to slow it down and use some more caution.ianmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10700329727848734442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-20695521566983593292012-04-10T15:19:57.795-07:002012-04-10T15:19:57.795-07:00In any case you are not lawfully within the crossw...In any case you are not lawfully within the crosswalk if you do not wait for traffic to first clear the intersection before you enter it, whether the light is white or not. Sure, there's the "due care" clause, but that's a judgement call. It's quite possible he was reckless, but the only evidence presented so far on that has been a maximum speed reading from notoriously bad iPhone GPS.<br /><br />Note the delay between red light and white pedestrian light is around 2 seconds. It's reported it's around 50 meters to cross that intersection. 12.5 meters per second would be a very fast speed for a bike, so it took at least 4 seconds for him to cross the intersection. That's plenty of time for pedestrians to rush onto the intersection before he reached the cross-walk. Should he have slammed on his brakes the minute he saw the light turn yellow? Doing so would risk getting obliterated by cross-traffic. It was a split-second judgement call to think he could clear the pedestrian traffic, and he judged wrongly. But this hardly seems conclusively criminal by the standards applied to vehicle operators.djconnelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484858820878605035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-71921493267288545972012-04-10T14:01:34.492-07:002012-04-10T14:01:34.492-07:00"The light turned red as I was cruising throu..."The light turned red as I was cruising through the middle of the intersection" Chris Bucchere<br /><br />The light was green for pedestrians, and Sutchi Hui was "lawfully" within the intersection.<br /><br />The second statement is not implied by the first. See the video embedded in this thread. There is a substantial delay between the red light on Castro and the walk sign turning white.murphstahoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-49085600473504333652012-04-10T13:58:16.839-07:002012-04-10T13:58:16.839-07:00djconnel misses:
V C Section 21451 Circular Green...djconnel misses:<br /><br />V C Section 21451 Circular Green or Green Arrow<br />Amended Ch. 413, Stats. 1981. Effective <b>January 1, 1982</b>.<br /><b>Any driver, including one turning, shall yield the right-of-way to other traffic and to pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk.</b><br /><br />V C Section 21950 Right of Way at Crosswalks<br />Amended Sec. 8, Ch. 833, Stats. 2000. Effective <b>January 1, 2001</b>.<br /><b>does not relieve a driver of a vehicle from the duty of exercising due care for the safety of any pedestrian within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection.</b><br /><br />21950 in <b>2001</b> fixed the 21451 in <b>1982</b> misnomer that vehicles have unfettered right of way.<br /><br />Either way, 21950 AND 21451 state the same point; driver shall yield to pedestrian. <br /><br />Then there's possible eye witness account:<br />"The light turned red as I was cruising through the middle of the intersection" Chris Bucchere<br /><br />The light was green for pedestrians, and Sutchi Hui was "lawfully" within the intersection. Leaving him a small fraction of a second to react.<br /><br />Never - "<b>blammo</b>" Chris Bucchere.The Avengershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09908937405941172306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-40740693502294293902012-04-09T22:39:26.488-07:002012-04-09T22:39:26.488-07:00Chris Bucchere logged back into Strava and hit &qu...Chris Bucchere logged back into Strava and hit "delete". QED. He was almost assuredly advised by many people who were saying on the threads that he will need a lawyer that he should do so. All those people would probably be savvy enough to believe that "delete" does not remove the ride from Strava's servers (that will be interesting to see).<br /><br />The email threads were known to thousands of people for days but not in the media for a week. That is astounding. I was in a conversation regarding the deletion of the SF2G thread. "Destroying evidence" came up. I said "The SFPD already has the thread, you can't destroy anything. But this will be a really ugly media firestorm, if I were choosing I'd delete them."<br /><br />Can't speak for 1000 people but distaste for the fallout from public release of the original mail from Chris Bucchere was why I did not say anything about it to anyone outside my close confidence. In the age of the Internet that staying underground for a week is truly astonishing, almost as if the SFPD told them NOT to publish anything until a certain time. That doesn't explain that no random Internet commenter did not find the emails. Omertamurphstahoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-68374754271394620222012-04-09T20:37:42.696-07:002012-04-09T20:37:42.696-07:00OK, "slow leak" was incorrect. I guess I...OK, "slow leak" was incorrect. I guess I was more surprised that everyone got the email and no one shared it straight away. That's all I meant. Someone thought to contact Strava and have them delete the ride, but didn't publicize it.<br /><br />Of course it traveled quickly once it got out.Jekkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01514880619697002202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-15734713858478373822012-04-09T16:49:24.894-07:002012-04-09T16:49:24.894-07:00@Jekka -
There was no slow "leak". It w...@Jekka -<br /><br />There was no slow "leak". It was a delayed but instantaneous release. The stories derived from the email threads appeared in the Marin IJ, SFAppeal, SFBG, Chron, SFist, in rapid succession. The stories are not derived from each other, and all contain different snippets from the 2 key email threads, one from Mission Cycling and one from SF2G. <br /><br />Our intrepid Bay Area Journalists were oblivious to these threads for a week. To me, Occam's Razor says that at some point, a single entity decided to release the entire email threads to the various publications simultanously. The Marin IJ was simply the first one to get their story written.<br /><br />Who sent the threads to the papers is not known. I do know that the SFPD had this information the day of the accident. And that our newspapers do crappy research. The SF2G thread was in the top 10 google search for Chris Bucchere bike crash.murphstahoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-44856860170369718922012-04-09T16:48:16.102-07:002012-04-09T16:48:16.102-07:00Vitaly's suggestion +1Vitaly's suggestion +1Mikesonnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04646744335221684911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-82049633829515265822012-04-09T16:39:15.881-07:002012-04-09T16:39:15.881-07:00@ Mikesonn
If this had been a car hitting a cycli...@ Mikesonn<br /><br />If this had been a car hitting a cyclist, it would have been *overtly* on Twitter and everywhere else within the hour. This was more like a slow leak of info. I mean, really, Marin Independent Journal? <br /><br />I was suggesting that people were silent out of some self-recognition and guilt. I could be wrong. <br /><br />Vitaly's suggestion is excellent and thoughtful. Much better than blaming various modes of transport.Jekkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01514880619697002202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-57334064275594491922012-04-09T16:34:02.066-07:002012-04-09T16:34:02.066-07:00@vitaly - count me in. Had I been more organized I...@vitaly - count me in. Had I been more organized I was going to bring flowers this morning.murphstahoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-268833311383707082012-04-09T16:16:12.388-07:002012-04-09T16:16:12.388-07:00Thanks for blogging about this. I thought about it...Thanks for blogging about this. I thought about it, but I consider myself too close to the situation, for more than one reason, to post about it at length.<br /><br />Unfortunately, unlike the previous, similar events, this one has a before and after component. <br /><br />Let's just focus on the before. Chris was returning home and was going down Castro very fast. In fact, he was going so fast that when the light turned yellow, he had no choice but to continue across the intersection, where the light changed to red and pedestrians began to cross. This all took seconds, as I'm sure you can imagine. Unfortunately, Chris ended up hitting Sutchi Hui, who we know later died. <br /><br />In order to determine the level of punishment, your factual inquiry has to stop there. Period. What was said and done after has absolutely no place in our legal system, or our courts. As with the previous incident, I don't see this ending in jail time and as with the previous incident, I think that's the correct outcome. This belongs in civil court with a suit for damages. <br /><br />However, where the second part plays a huge role is in the PR flame war that is ongoing among motorists, pedestrians and cyclists. We, cyclists, now seem like douchebags who recklessly ride through intersections hitting people. This also gets people angry. I don't know if this is in any way related to a cyclist/racer getting run down in LA over the weekend, but the fact that some people in comments on articles covering this issue feel that they are somehow now entitled to attack cyclists on the road, places every single one of us who rides in danger. <br /><br />We now have a lot of goodwill to build up. Personally, I think Mission Cycling and SFBC should join forces and have a collection for the family of the victim to take care of medical and burial expenses. Perhaps showing that we recognize there are problem riders among us is a first step to fostering a better relationship between the "warring" groups.Vitaly Gashparhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08841211447943927157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7616818704326975625.post-5773900145954210142012-04-09T16:13:16.672-07:002012-04-09T16:13:16.672-07:00@Ygduf this is a valid point in general. On that h...@Ygduf this is a valid point in general. On that hill in specific, I would probably be creeping down Castro like an old grandma. There's just too much crap going on there. Even with a flat out green light you never know when some meth-head naked guy is going to come screaming out onto the pavement.murphstahoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17378354136823393492noreply@blogger.com